Live Action Mafia

A game of sneakiness and paranoia
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 Post subject: Ammo
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 10:04 pm 
I have ammo, which charges the "gun" with 1 shot.
It seems like it would be a reasonably elegant mechanic for everyone to start with one unit of ammo, so that when the mafia kill someone, they replenish their ammo by looting the body. Suppose that everyone does in fact start with one unit of ammo. Then here's a scheme that'd force a mafia to out themself with probability 13/16: we choose a provably random person (provable randomness isn't banned! :)) right before day end, everyone gives them their ammo, and then everyone watches them until day end. If they don't die by the end of the day, then we execute them.

If the person we chose is mafia, we're happy because we execute a mafia.
If the person we chose is town and a mafia kills them, we're happy because a mafia outed themself to make the kill. (The mafia get a lot of ammo, but they're presumably not kill-limited if we don't do anything.)
If the person we chose is town and the mafia don't kill them, we're happy because we've destroyed all the ammo (or all but a small amount of it that the mafia hide) (we don't have a way to destroy items short of executing people, but it might be worth executing someone to get rid of a bunch of ammo).

This scheme might be optimizable, but before I optimize it, are the assumptions valid? That is, do people start out with about one ammo each? Is the gun even a mafia item, or is it a vigilante item?


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 Post subject: Re: Ammo
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 10:19 pm 
Even if all assumptions are valid: what if a mafia outs themself, makes the kill, and then has a bunch of bullets to attempt to kill everyone else there watching with? They're going to out themselves anyway, might as well make it count.


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 Post subject: Re: Ammo
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 10:21 pm 
If guns are limited only by ammo, they can do that anyway, without any sharing scheme. I imagine a gun can only be used once/day even if you have ammo or something.


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 Post subject: Re: Ammo
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 10:24 pm 
Generically though, destroying items that can be used to kill people (which we don't know for certain this is, but I'm a human being so I know that mothers are older than their daughters, birds can fly but ostriches can't, and guns go bang) seems like a good idea for town; it increases the relative amount of importance for the lynches. This assumes that it's easier to keep lynches under town control than it is to keep items under town control. (Any experienced players care to comment on that last sentence?)


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 Post subject: Re: Ammo
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 10:29 pm 
Yeah, I see your point; mafia can go on a killing spree no matter how the ammo is distributed, within this parameter space.
(If we could pick a random person without the mafia finding out, and have people give all the ammo to them, it'd be pretty cool. but if we could do that, we could probably do a lot of things.)

Also: this would be elegant, but for all we know it's way off. If someone claims here that they didn't start with 1 ammo, is it more likely they're mafia trying to throw us off this correct line of thought, or that we're wrong? (FWIW I also have 1 ammo)


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 Post subject: Re: Ammo
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 10:33 pm 
If at most 3 (the number of mafia in the first three randomizations) or 4 people claim to have not started with one ammo, then we should do this and be suspicious of those people. If lots of people claim to have not started with exactly one, we might still do this, but with less benefit, since the mafia'd be able to hide some ammo.

If any townie has a gun, then the question that determines whether this scheme's worth it is Luke's question of whether it's easier for the town to direct lynch votes or keep track of items. If no townie has a gun, though, it doesn't matter how good the town is at keeping track of items; it's still better to destroy the ammo that can only hurt us.


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 Post subject: Re: Ammo
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:05 pm 
I have an ammo! I haven't thought too much about the proposal, but it seems reasonable. I would be okay with being the person that is killed or lynched.


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 Post subject: Re: Ammo
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:10 pm 
I don't have an ammo.

Isn't it possible to just have every townie destroy his/her own ammo? Why do we need to give them all to someone and execute them?


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 Post subject: Re: Ammo
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:12 pm 
I do have a "present" which has a random item inside, idk what it is yet though because Pravina hasn't responded to my request to open it. I also have another non-ammo item.


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 Post subject: Re: Ammo
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:17 pm 
There's no mechanic to destroy items in the rules other than getting executed or kaboomed.


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 Post subject: Re: Ammo
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:19 pm 
I also do not have ammo.


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 Post subject: Re: Ammo
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:53 pm 
No ammo here.


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 Post subject: Re: Ammo
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 12:03 am 
I do not have ammo.


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 Post subject: Re: Ammo
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 12:12 am 
Huh.. Sounds like there's a lot less ammo out there than expected. Still might be worth it to destroy it though? I guess it depends on exactly how much ammo does exist.


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 Post subject: Re: Ammo
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 12:24 am 
Given what pravinas was saying about item distribution, it sounds like items are randomly distributed (and presumably will be distributed randomly every day? or maybe as reward for doing the daily drama?) which would imply that more ammo will be given out in future days. Tbh I find it unlikely that the game is set up such that we could destroy all the ammo (and if it is, pravinas could notice this and add more to the supply to balance.)


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 Post subject: Re: Ammo
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 12:58 am 
Now that we know that some people have ammo and some don't, can we proceed with Pesto's scheme without revealing who else has ammo? (They might become higher priority targets for the mafia).

In particular, let's do exactly as suggested but each person privately goes into a room with the ammo collector and gives them ammo if they have any. That way only the ammo collector learns who has ammo and only right before they die. If we do it right, we can even stop them from communicating the information of who had ammo with their potential mafia buddies (in the case that they are mafia).


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 Post subject: Re: Ammo
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 8:45 am 
How would the dead period interface with that? (Can't give items or cast votes past 10, but if they're Mafia they don't die and can talk to Mafia buddies until 11, afaict.)


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 Post subject: Re: Ammo
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 8:50 am 
Pesto is now probably innocent, so we should go ahead with his plot. Let's pick the person we think is sketchiest for making the kill, then give them ammo right before execution.


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 Post subject: Re: Ammo
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 9:02 am 
blumberg wrote:
Pesto is now probably innocent, so we should go ahead with his plot. Let's pick the person we think is sketchiest for making the kill, then give them ammo right before execution.


Wait that seems like a horrible idea- if they're Mafia (which they are above average likely to be) then they can instant transfer ALL the ammo to Mafia before they die... Am I missing something?


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 Post subject: Re: Ammo
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 9:05 am 
jamb wrote:
blumberg wrote:
Pesto is now probably innocent, so we should go ahead with his plot. Let's pick the person we think is sketchiest for making the kill, then give them ammo right before execution.


Wait that seems like a horrible idea- if they're Mafia (which they are above average likely to be) then they can instant transfer ALL the ammo to Mafia before they die... Am I missing something?


I think the idea is to do the transfer right before day rolls over and watch the person so that they do not get a chance to transfer any items.


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 Post subject: Re: Ammo
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 9:07 am 
If they're Mafia, watching them wouldn't do any good because they're going to die anyway and you can't physically restrain someone from posting.


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 Post subject: Re: Ammo
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 9:09 am 
I think you have to transfer items in person? Unless there is a some special mafia power?


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 Post subject: Re: Ammo
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 9:10 am 
blumberg wrote:
I think you have to transfer items in person? Unless there is a some special mafia power?


Mafia have an instant transfer via forums.


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 Post subject: Re: Ammo
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 9:13 am 
jamb wrote:
blumberg wrote:
I think you have to transfer items in person? Unless there is a some special mafia power?


Mafia have an instant transfer via forums.


Oh darn. Then the only way we could do this is in a timed race? Literally not give them enough time to post anything on forums?


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 Post subject: Re: Ammo
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 9:19 am 
Plan Proposal:

Figure out who is sketchiest, take all of their electronic devices at 9:45ish. Everyone who has ammo then transfers it to the person. Then everyone watches this person and blocks them from leaving the room until 10:00. We execute them.


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 Post subject: Re: Ammo
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 9:25 am 
I'm concerned that they might also be able to transfer by talking to Pravina and directly telling her who to transfer to. Or maybe some other caveat.

Pravina, can you confirm whether it's possible to transfer items without any electronic devices?


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 Post subject: Re: Ammo
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 9:25 am 
Otherwise, this plan sounds much better now :)


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 Post subject: Re: Ammo
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 9:39 am 
It would be possible to do the item transfer in person by telling me or the relevant mafia directly or transferring a physrep, just as townies do. The time associated with that transfer would be when I/they receive the transfer request.


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 Post subject: Re: Ammo
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 10:09 am 
I assume that if the person were to transfer through Pravina something, they would have to give a name on not just say something vague like "my mafia buddy whose name has 2 vowels" or something?

Also, can we keep the person from whispering into Pravina's ear?


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 Post subject: Re: Ammo
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 10:18 am 
We could certainly do this in a room that does not contain Pravina.

However, people are going to be getting close to this person to give them items, and it might be easy for the receiver to slip physreps to their mafia buddy when that buddy pretends to give them an item.

This *could* work but it could also go wrong... and as I said, I don't think it would permanently eliminate the ammo supply, since I suspect more items go out every night.

I'm weakly against the plan.


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