Live Action Mafia

Rules Wank Thread
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Author:  ksedlar [ Wed Sep 30, 2015 11:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Rules Wank Thread

Don - Rules currently imply that don's investigative immunity only applies to kills made after being elected don. On the other hand, the understanding of many players was that don's investigative immunity applied to any kills made by the don at all, as long as they are don at the time of investigations (this was the case last IAP, the only other time it came up, as far as I know). Another possibility is that donness applies as long as they are don at the time of clues being gathered (I like this one, because clue gathering matches up with how frame and mtp work, unless there's another conflict of understanding I'm not sure of). One way or another, this should be made clear in the future.
Innocent Child Reveals - I'm not sure whether or not I like them having to be in person. I also am not sure all innocent children are all clear on this rule. It certainly makes setting up innocent child networks harder; not sure whether this is good or bad for game. I think it's probably good. Anyway, this is certainly a big change from previous games, and it should be discussed.

Author:  ksedlar [ Thu Oct 01, 2015 2:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rules Wank Thread

Dgrazian says:
As it currently stands, town can catch mafia spoofing investigators by:

1. Having investigators check clues at (approximately) the same time.
2. Requiring investigators to compare clue results. If there's a mismatch then one of them is fake. Note that the mafia have no way of knowing how many clues exist.

Possible options to fix this:

1. Overhaul the clue system. I might be more inclined to this option than others. I'm not a huge fan of the system - it feels rather clunky, and the various investigation-related abilities don't feel to me like they interact elegantly. With that said, the problem described above is not in itself a reason for an overhaul.

2. Allow the mafia to check clue numbers anytime. Note that with the rules as is, this would give them a way to verify serial killers. Some adjustment would need to be made.


Feel free to share this wherever applicable.

Author:  ksedlar [ Fri Oct 02, 2015 1:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rules Wank Thread

Cynic - First of all, cynic gets way too large of a percentage of game on their cynic list. Cynics should always have a smaller list than conspiracy theorists (at least until endgame). 10% is more reasonable. Also, cynicism shouldn't activate for lynches. Otherwise it becomes kind of silly, and it takes some of the strategy away from the role, which is relatively low strategy anyway. It's also an unfortunate positive feedback mechanism for town (if there are a lot of mafia lined up to be lynched, cynics can keep getting immunity out of it).

Author:  aok [ Sun Oct 04, 2015 1:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rules Wank Thread

I agree on cynic.

I don't think town can actually confirm investigators that way.
1. If the mafia have contacted a rogue, they can fake investigator.
2. If the mafia have conscripted an investigator, superhero, or anyone involved in the plan, they can fake investigator.
3. The mafia can guess how many clues there are, and they have a very good chance of getting it right.

If the town checks investigators through proxies, the mafia will almost certainly be a proxy, and can find out the clue info.
If the town checks investigators directly, early in game, the target is an extremely good conscription target if the plan succeeds.
IF the town checks investigators directly, later in game, the number of clues left everywhere is likely to be "one".

Author:  Daniel Grazian [ Tue Oct 06, 2015 11:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rules Wank Thread

I agree on all counts about cynic.

I still think that the mafia are vulnerable to clue tricks. The trick will definitely get false negatives. But it won't get false positives, and I think it's quite likely to get a correct positive.

Author:  aok [ Tue Oct 06, 2015 12:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rules Wank Thread

Given that a ton of roles can be checked, I'm not sure that it's that bad that fake investigator claims can be checked unreliably.

Author:  Daniel Grazian [ Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rules Wank Thread

Other role claims (excepting innocent child - but innocent child is supposed to be unique in this way) cannot be verified cheaply and easily this way. If I'm wrong and the can be, then that would be a potential cause for concern.

Author:  ksedlar [ Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rules Wank Thread

I agree with aok. Conspiracy theorists, cynics, superheroes, and desperadoes can be checked to the degree that town cares to use up a vigilante kill and is sure that mafia doesn't have a medkit. And as we've seen, it's entirely possible for mafia to have all 2/2 of the medkits in game when even the Dgrazians of town think they have none. I think that investigator checking is WAY more fakeable than this.

1/4 chance mafia conscripted an investigator/superhero, which lets any mafia fake this process
1/8 chance (number I pulled out of my ass for likelihood as of a few days into game) that mafia are in contact with both rogues / know one when the other has died.
1/8 chance (number I pulled out of my ass) that mafia has tricked the correct number of clues out of someone else beforehand.
1/4 chance (number I pulled out of my ass for likelihood as of a few days into game) that mafia are in contact with a single rogue / know one has died. This ups their base rate of guessing to 1/2 instead of 1/3.
1/2 chance (number I pulled out of my ass) that mafia can increase their base rate to about 1/2 instead of 1/3 just from context clues (e.g. a rogue made a kill day 1, so they're likely to be active enough to have destroyed a clue as of 3 hours after the death)

So chances are that these probabilities will stack in such a way that a mafia spoofing investigator has a decent chance of always being right, and usually a >=50% chance of being right. Additionally, the mafia who actually let themselves be checked this way are much, much more likely to be the ones that go in knowing the right answer. There have also been many past games in which mafia has carefully directed prophets towards smiting townspeople, so I have no doubt that this would end up similarly directed.

Furthermore, even if there is some chance of catching a mafia through this, it comes at a cost. Investigators have to reveal to 3x as many people (another "investigator" and that investigator's proxy, rather than just their own proxy). Furthermore, this strategy effectively identifies when investigators are self-proxying/multi-proxying, so the increase in revelation is even greater. Plus, trying to implement this strategy also makes it harder for investigators/superheroes to fake the others' role (if someone tells a superhero to do this when they're super, they can't actually check clues).

Basically, the strategy reveals a decent chunk of information, requires non-trivial coordination, doesn't guarantee innocence to a degree that's worth anything, and often won't even catch mafia it's done to. So I think it's fine to leave the rules as they are.

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