Live Action Mafia

A game of sneakiness and paranoia
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 Post subject: Discussion Day 2
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:05 am 
Begin!


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 Post subject: Investigations
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:58 am 
Hey, investigators. I know you're out there. 1 to 3 of you. Please tell us the results of your investigations via a proxy. We've only heard from Shike so far, and he's the mayor.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:27 pm 
I bravely volunteer myself to be a proxy.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:43 pm 
I'm vaguely uncomfortable with shike both being a direct proxy and mayor, and also volunteer as resident far away person. Mainly because that makes him too good a kill/conscript target if town and too potent if mafia, but I may be being overly paranoid.

More pressing, we should figure out who our default lynch is. If I'm around near the time decision is made I'll vote, otherwise, I think it's better for me not to vote for an (essentially) random person and mess with tiebreaks. Anyways, so who are we planning to lynch tonight, barring new info being released?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:43 pm 
I heard from someone that dgrazian was in contact with an investigator and told results to Shi-ke and dkaufman. Apparently, dkaufman was investigated and results were negative. It doesn't entirely rule out that dkaufman is innocent though. It is very easy to get someone else to kill Miranda.

I don't like the fact that dkaufman is calling out investigators, claiming that he's heard only from Shi-ke. That may be the case via forum, but if my source is telling the truth, then dkaufman knows he was searched and found negative.

Furthermore, dkaufman hasn't argued for his innocence. You could've at least mentioned the investigation verdict you heard from dgrazian last night as evidence that you could be innocent.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:48 pm 
I also found it quite interesting that last night, I was just kidding around with dkaufman and said, "You don't fuck with dkaufman!" I usually say this to him while he's in ET. He geherally smiles and doesn't really say anything back. But last night, he responded with along the lines if "Then don't."

It could mean he just got annoyed that I kept saying it, or he felt uneasy about something. After all, I did hear something about killing Shi-ke. And what's interesting is, he hasn't refuted my claim about this.

Lynch dkaufman.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:55 pm 
did kaufmand actually get negative investigation results and know about it? can somebody (preferably somebody besides kaufmand) confirm. Also kaufmand, could you explain the kill comments? they do sound pretty sketchy.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:02 pm 
I'm of the opinion that it is never correct for the town to "no lynch." (It is, after all, by lynching that the town wins the game; even if the town has no information, random or essentially random killing on the part of the town will maximize the chances they win.)

I therefore disagree with the town's decision last turn not to lynch (I should have participated in that discussion; sorry.) I see no obvious targets for lynching. Because Cathy wants to lynch dkaufman so bad, I'll vote for him if nothing more happens, but only because I want to see someone lynched and he's the only player that has been accused.

Sorry, dkaufman...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:03 pm 
My understanding was that the kill comment was overheard out of context during a trollish conversation with shike, although I wasn't there, so this is secondhand knowledge. I believe it was either Shike or Dgrazian who told me that, although I'm not entirely sure, since there were a lot of people around at the time and I was kind of tired.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:17 pm 
Elizabeth Krueger wrote:
My understanding was that the kill comment was overheard out of context during a trollish conversation with shike, although I wasn't there, so this is secondhand knowledge. I believe it was either Shike or Dgrazian who told me that, although I'm not entirely sure, since there were a lot of people around at the time and I was kind of tired.


It's nice that you mention this, but I am disapppointed that I didn't hear this from dkaufman himself. When I overheard him at Black Hole, he knew things were getting awkward. He should have cleared the misunderstanding somehow when we met at the stairs, but he changed the subject about me having an affinity for Random Hall shirts. >___>'''

He's had a while to think about an argument protecting himself. If he does one now, then it means we're forcing him to make one


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:18 pm 
It is in fact true that I am in contact with an investigator.

The purported investigator got a negative on kaufmand yesterday.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:23 pm 
Last night i heard Andrea running down the hall past my room saying "it's time for live mafia". the excitement in her voice suggests a sense of menace.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:24 pm 
Cathy, do you have any argument against kaufmand other than vague suspicions against him? Suspicions are important to post, but you're pressing really, really hard to lynch him.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:34 pm 
Cathy, I don't think you are reading the situation correctly, mafia are constantly worried about being caught and are MUCH more likely to overreact and come up with wild excuses than not bother defending himself. I didn't see tons of heat on kaufmand on the forum? Maybe there was offline. But in any case, not rushing to defend yourself is not mafia behavior. The kill comment seems sort of sketchy still, but shi-ke trolling sounds actually pretty likely and if that's the case it's not really sketchy at all
so... basically nothing so far makes kaufmand seem more sketchy to me? Maybe I'm missing something but if so, its information I don't know. I mean, I still might default to him, but given that a (supposed) investigator has cleared him?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:38 pm 
Evil Andrea? :twisted:
everything makes sense now...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:40 pm 
I think Andrea is just honestly excited to play, I wouldn't think anything of that.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:40 pm 
Daniel Grazian wrote:
Cathy, do you have any argument against kaufmand other than vague suspicions against him? Suspicions are important to post, but you're pressing really, really hard to lynch him.


Why hasn't he said anything against my suspicions? Why is he keeping quiet? Why does he have time to email et-social, telling ET members to visit the murder site at Random Hall, yet he doesn't have time to even say, "I'm innocent." on forum? Why is he keeping quiet? Why didn't he say "Cathy, you're crazy. I'm not mafia." when I kept putting him on the spotlight last night?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:49 pm 
Sorry I can't give pressing evidence, and I am going by my suspicions. But I can't help feeling this way when I haven't really heard dkaufman's side.

I am willing to accept that I am wrong, but I want to be as honest as possible.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:52 pm 
A good bit of current black hole kitchen (Eric, me, Andrea..) agrees with Cathy (posting to keep the forum updated.) her suspicions seem reasonable.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:53 pm 
to clarify, I'm not actually suspicious of andrea more than anybody else the comment was in jest.
Also cathy, if kaufmand had said, I'm innocent would you have believed him? Saying you are innocent doesn't prove that much.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:58 pm 
I made a post yesterday detailing why I am suspicious of kaufmand (page 2 of the day 1 discussion thread). If you haven't read it, please do so. I stand behind my suspicions on the grounds that he does not refute anyone's claims against him (in person, not on the forums) except by weakly pointing to his alibi and claiming that the timing of his browsing history can prove his alibi, except he was on the forum (gasp!) so he can't show it to us to prove it. (not saying that everyone should always be able to prove their alibi, just saying this feels more to me like a "shit, now I need to come up with proof" in response to me asking why the hell he was paying so much attention to the exact timing of when he moved from Black Hole to Bonfire)

Tl;dr, I still think he's full of bullshit and has put up very little protest to the accusations against him.

Also, Jfrisch, saying you're innocent doesn't do much, but specifically not bringing it up when asked is kind of weird, in my opinion.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:03 pm 
Yesterday, I was suspicious of dkaufman because of some forum posts. Today, I don't understand why Cathy is pushing it too much.
I would go for dkaufman then Cathy, all of them are suspicious.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:07 pm 
Sibyani, I am just being honest with what I saw, heard, said in Black Hole. If being honest makes me suspicious, well shit. :/

I don't want to be the type of person who wants to keep quiet just so I wouldn't look suspicous. I am trying to be as honest as I can. I don't want to hide anything, and I want to completely understand the situation. How can I understand something if I can't be honest about what I think? I am willn


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:09 pm 
Reposting Krue's comments for convience.

....
I'm going to come out and say that I am somewhat suspicious of kaufmand. During the hour or so before the kill, he wandered into the kitchen several times, paused to look around, and either walked through or turned and left without saying anything. He's seemed more nervous to me today than he normally does. (I tend to trust my gut feelings, and I have a decent track record with them for people who aren't alland) He was sitting in Black Hole for a while shortly before the kill, during which time I asked him about why he kept wandering in and out and looking sketchy, and he said he had just been wandering around the dorm, mentioned looking for mannes. His alibi places him at the scene of the kill within five minutes of it occurring, and no one else was paying close attention to times, so I doubt anyone could *actually* refute his claim. The fact that he remembers the exact time that he left the kitchen actually seems more sketchy to me. I feel like (at least for me) I tend to know the timing of my actions better when I've had reason to check the time (such as PMing the moderator to tell them about a kill).

Take this as you will. I know some people don't like to go on gut instinct, but I feel like there's enough evidence in there that I should post this to the forum.
....


1. posting suspicions is not suspicious, disagreeing with somebody does not mean they are mafia, in particular, I want to make it clear that I don't particularly think that people who disagree with me are mafia with that prelude:
2. it seems like the only way kaufmand would have made the kill was if 1. he covered it up (forgetting exactly which of frame a townsperson etc are in this game at the moment) or the investigator is bullshit, both of which are possible, but seem to be rather unlikely, furthermore I don't think that, if kaufmand was mafia, he would be the type of person to be particularly quiet about it, based on watching his play last game it seemed like he was really involved, really thoughtful etc... that type of person doesn't usually tend to be a bad mafia, I mean it's possible but it seems like some evidence against. I mean I haven't actually seen kaufmand so maybe if I saw him I would think he was acting sketchy but given that he got an innocent investigation, it doesn't seem like enough to make a lynch mob against him worth it.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:11 pm 
Cathy Capalla wrote:
Sibyani, I am just being honest with what I saw, heard, said in Black Hole. If being honest makes me suspicious, well shit. :/

I don't want to be the type of person who wants to keep quiet just so I wouldn't look suspicous. I am trying to be as honest as I can. I don't want to hide anything, and I want to completely understand the situation. How can I understand something if I can't be honest about what I think? I am willn

I am willing to look like a fool.

And I am pushing it because we need someone to lynch. I want things to move forward, and I agree with Adam Yedidia with his "no lynch" policy.

Dkaufman, prove my suspicions wrong.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:19 pm 
I'm no more suspicious of kaufmand than of anyone else. His wasn't the only weak alibi, and I think Mafia in general forces people to come out of their usual hangouts and wander around more than usual, which can be uncomfortable in its own right because you're hanging around people you're not as familiar with and on top of that you have to be suspicious of everyone. At the very least it seems he didn't kill mgavrin, so unless something happens tonight, I have no problem with voting no lynch until we have more solid evidence against anyone. Or maybe we should start thinking about the power players and likely conscription targets.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:22 pm 
Wow, it looks like a lot happened since I went offline (no, this isn't a random excuse for time to come up with an explanation; Andrea, Delong, Adam Yedidia, god, etc. can confirm that I was programming for Vecna). I have responses to all of these accusations, several of which I have given multiple times to individual people. Perhaps I should have saved time by just posting on the forum.

First of all, I didn't hear (directly) from dgrazien about the investigation. I was aware that dgrazien was in contact with an investigator and I did hear about the investigation, but it was through Andrea and she hadn't heard dgrazien explicitly say there had been a negative investigation (he had only hinted). This is not enough information for me to say "there's been an investigation and I'm clear" -- but even if it were, who would trust me if I did? Why would dgrazien want me to announce the investigation when he is more trusted than me and he is the one who heard about the investigation in the first place? dgrazien, please respond. I feel, and Andrea agrees with me, that you've been acting pretty strange. Was there a miscommunication somewhere?

As for the point about me not declaring my own innocence, I have. To many people in person. Ask around Random. As for emailing ET about visiting the murder site, I check my emails before I started coding. Then I started coding.

"Then don't" was a joke; we were sitting in Black Hole lounge. Get it? Pretty much in line with a smile. But really. "Then don't" means I'm mafia?

Krue is correct that the kill comments were part of a trollish conversation. I wasn't aware that I had to explicitly say this; Shike was in the lounge. What kind of mafia loudly tells their victims that they are about to be killed? While leaving black hole lounge? Really?

You may get the sense from the last few explanations that I agree with dgrazien. I don't see much reason for cathy to be so suspicious of me, but she is trying really hard to implicate me. cathy, please respond.

As for who to lynch, I'm most suspicious of Hassan because of his alibi. It is pretty much guaranteed that no one would see him exploring Boston; it is likewise pretty much guaranteed that no one would see him if he hid in his room all evening except for a quick excursion to kill someone.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:45 pm 
Dkaufman, thanks for clearing my suspicions. I guess I was being too paranoid about the "Then don't." and about the "kill Shik-ke thing."

I've been typing on my phone, and I'm currently waiting for saferide. I'll write more later.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:54 pm 
I can confirm that "_____ kill shi-ke" was in fact a part of a trollish conversation that he had with me. As anybody who was ever in Black Hole Lounge can attest, I spent most of yesterday there writing for XCamp, so there is no possible way that kaufmand could have said that from the Lounge and that I have not heard.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 10:47 pm 
tl;dr:

Day 1: Miranda killed.
Day 2: Cecilia killed

Mayor Shike claims that he checked that Schmolly killed Cecilia. Cathy claims a source told her Schmolly killed Miranda. Shike claims to be politician and wants to be lynched to confirm this.


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