Live Action Mafia

A game of sneakiness and paranoia
It is currently Sat Sep 25, 2021 2:34 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Town Strategy Post
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 2:31 am 
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2020 1:51 am
Posts: 0
Hi friends, and welcome new players! Are you pumped for the start to a new year of mafia? :D

In order to encourage friendly interaction, better psych reads, and greater engagement with the game, especially for the new folks, I think we should find some times to hold "town meetings" via video chat. That's a separate topic though; our first order of business here is to figure out a good strategy for town given this game's unusual setup. Feel free to post your own thoughts and claims on strategy here; I'll start by compiling a summary of some thoughts that ksedlar and I had while brainstorming.

The overarching theme is: Compared to both most live action games and most dead action mafia settings, this game's setup is very low on ways to obtain solid mechanical evidence of guilt, a problem that may be best (partially) mitigated through developing a centralized information system.

"Investigations"

To elaborate: The only roles that allow town to get direct information on the identity of a killer are priest, gay knight, and possibly stalker. Each of these is weaker than in normal implementations -- priests can't distinguish a negative result from a roleblock, gay knights investigate at their time of death and risk getting roleblocked if they reveal their intentions beforehand, and stalkers' results are easily obfuscated by taxi driving chains.

The result is that it will be VERY hard overall for town to get a nontrivial amount of kill info unless we work for it in very specific ways.

Here are a few other ways of identifying mafia without direct killer information:
  • If there's a no kill day, then either the mafia responsible for killing that day was roleblocked, the kill target was jailed, or mafia did a no-kill day (if that's legal?), making roleblocker/jailer information relevant.
  • Assuming some sort of mass-claim strategy (either public or private; more on this later), certain roles or target claims can be contradicted by stalking results.

Most of these sources of information (all aside from priest) are almost impossible to implement correctly without some form of role reveal. Which brings us to:

"Innocence Network"
Gay knights are the premier provably-innocent role in this game (followed by visitors at at-most-one-mafia-barring-weird-edge-cases, and maybe stalkers given enough organization). A potential strategy is the following:
  • Ask all gay knight pairs to claim
  • Select one gay knight pair in some hard-for-mafia-to-manipulate fashion to be the dictators for the game, and have everyone relevant (that's probably everyone except priests and, until needed, vigilantes) privately role-reveal to them
  • Allow this pair to dictate the actions of all roleblockers, taxi drivers, jailers, stalkers, and visitors in order to optimize information gain and semi-provable innocences (in particular, probably have at least two jailers dedicated to jailing them each night to keep them safe and healthy; even one suffices in a pinch as a deterrent)
  • Win the game
The main benefit of this plan is: With all (town) roleblocking and taxi driving efforts coordinated, we can much more easily narrow down failure modes for deductions from priest and stalker results, and we can also much more easily catch people in lies via stalkers. This strengthens our otherwise minuscule information-gaining capacity greatly, to an extent that is hard for non-centralized strategies to match.

The main anti-benefit of this plan is: It runs the risk of either selecting a mafia dictator pair, who might not be revealed for a long time, or a pair of less active or less experienced players who don't have the energy and/or experience to coordinate town strategy effectively. Things also get messed up if some players are inactive and don't report their actions and observations / don't do what they're asked to do. Also, we might not have any gay knights (rip :'( ).

An alternative that ksedlar brought up is to have everyone besides the generally actionless roles (gay knights, vigilantes, and priests, who also really don't like being roleblocked on certain days) publicly claim, since this game doesn't have strong punishments for role revealing to mafia, and then cycling through public action dictators day by day, via some mechanism that avoids having too many mafia dictators. I'm not sure how well we'll be able to come up with a scheme that doesn't end up letting mafia dictate too much, so any ideas here would be much appreciated.


Miscellaneous thoughts on individual roles (read on for tentative suggestions for how to play)
-Priests, while limited in their power, are our main hope for directly catching mafia in a kill. Generally, you'll want to put relatively high-profile players on both your saint and sinner lists, with the "ones who are worse at being mafia" on the saint list to hedge against the possibility of a "saint kills sinner" trigger. When someone on one of your lists dies, you should, if there is a trusted gay knight pair dictating game, tell them the result, and otherwise proxy that information out through what's called a proxy chain -- pick an arbitrary player with some probability $p$ and tell them: "I have the information that a priest found {set1} (not/)guilty of killing [player], assuming the priest was not roleblocked; feel free to proxy this further with some probability." Every person in this chain then continues the chain with some probability of their choice, and otherwise posts on an "Investigations" thread on the forums, "Priest [nickname the poster comes up with] found {set1} did(/not) kill [player]." After the first instance, stick to the same proxy chain while possible to avoid leaking more information.

The purpose of the proxy chain is to avoid giving mafia info on who the priest is, so that they can't target them specifically with kills or roleblocks.

-Gay knights are great, but also risky. See the proposed strategy on centralized dictation by a gay knight pair, above. If this is not the strategy we decide to take, NEVER reveal your gay knighthood unless you or your partner is about to be executed, in which case reveal it with enough time left before day end for us to pick a new target. Also, if your partner is dead, and we don't have a trusted dictator pair, probably find some way to proxy out the information of who you're planning to investikill so that we get the innocence information without risking you getting more likely roleblocked.

-Stalkers are a powerful source of information, both on potential killers and on the truth of role and target claims, but can only really be utilized fully in a centrally coordinated system. Without such a system, basically just stalk someone sketchy every day and report them (through a proxy chain) if they targeted someone who died (keeping in mind that this is very easily obfuscable).

-Taxi drivers are also best when coordinated; absent central coordination, your best bet is to drive yourself with relatively sketchy people, in the hopes that if mafia do try to kill you, they accidentally kill another mafia instead.

-Vigilantes should never publicly role-reveal until you've made your kill. Also, in most strategies you should only kill someone when it's been publicly decided that they should get vig-killed (e.g. if there are multiple outed mafia in one day somehow). You don't really need to role reveal even in a coordination scheme, until a need for vigs arises. A coordination scheme helps move roleblockers and taxi drivers out of the way for you to make a clean unredirected kill if necessary.

-Roleblockers are, again, best when coordinated; absent central coordination, just roleblock non-publicly-innocent people at random (with preference for sketchier folks) and report your target through a proxy chain if there's a no-kill day.

-Visitors are the "prove all except one are innocent barring weird edge cases" role. Absent central coordination, do make sure to visit someone every day so that you can claim your visitor record later if necessary.

-Jailers are really good, especially if there are public innocents like a gay knight pair. Without central coordination, though, basically treat yourself as doctor for high profile innocent-seeming targets that don't have super important roles to use who also doubles as a roleblocker.

-Finally, Arsonists win the easiest with a town win, but for obvious reasons shouldn't want to publicly reveal their role. Town appreciates any support you can offer and will attempt to offer it back in return :)

------------------------

That's all for now; please share any strategic thoughts you have, especially re: the viability of one of the mass-reveal-to-trusted?-centralized-coordinators plans! Also someone else please start a town meeting scheduling process separately oops

_________________
:Ṣḅ ̇ + ·Ạṣ: :SbAs:

Nice, I am all town on this blessed day. Also, mathfia is hard.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Town Strategy Post
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:14 pm 

Joined: Wed May 06, 2020 12:05 am
Posts: 0
I am not convinced Gay Knights should reveal. There are three scenarios:

0) There are 0 town Gay Knights. Two mafia claim Gay Knight and get to dictate game. They decline to use any other actions (roleblocking, taxi driving, or killing), allowing the other mafia to do that, so they can't be caught visiting by Stalkers. No town role can disprove the gay knight claim, so they will likely remain dictator for quite some time. The only way they could be caught is if either all other mafia die in spite of their efforts, allowing them to be caught directly, or if they're too obvious about screwing over town. Smart mafia would likely easily win from this position though.
1) There is 1 pair of town Gay Knights. This is probably the best scenario for town. Two mafia will counterclaim Gay Knight. If they're selected, we're back in scenario 0. If there are enough Jailors to keep the Gay Knights safe, they can dictate town and town would be in a good position. Otherwise, mafia kill off the Knights (by killing one, and then the other dies for free), and mafia have gotten a free kill in exchange for a couple days of town coordination.
2) There are at least 2 pairs of town Gay Knights. In this case, mafia will once again counterclaim Gay Knight. If they're selected, we're back in scenario 0. Otherwise, we're in scenario 1, except that other (non-dictator) Gay Knights have had to come out. There will definitely not be enough Jailors to cover the dictators and the other Gay Knight pairs, so mafia can effectively kill twice per night until all non-dictator Gay Knights are dead. Plausibly, Priests could "cover" Gay Knights by putting them on the saints list, but there's a high probability of this failing to do anything useful, and mafia double-killing will possibly lead to them winning even despite town dictators. There's also the possibility of the mafia GK pair getting caught, either by suspiciously not getting killed by mafia, or by using their role powers.

I like ksedlar's strategy of everyone except GKs, vigilantes, and priests publicly claiming their role, except I also think Stalkers shouldn't claim, since they're the only role in the game that can prove someone is lying about their role claim (and are thus an obvious roleblock target for mafia roleblockers). So the roles that should publicly claim are Roleblockers, Visitors, Jailors, and Taxi Drivers. This forces the mafia to either claim their real role (in which case they can get caught if they don't obey town), a non-visiting role (in which case they can get caught by visiting someone or claim Stalker and possibly beef the person they visited), or a fake visiting role (eg a Roleblocker claiming Jailor, which might be disprovable by targets succeeding on the jailed person). Basically, it forces Mafia to either not use their role powers to the greatest extent, or risk beefing people (especially Stalkers). It also doesn't give Mafia Roleblockers, Taxi Drivers, or kill obvious targets - roleblocking a Stalker or Priest are the most powerful due to its ability to cause confusion, but roleblocking a GK or vig usually does nothing, so randomly roleblocking from the unrevealed set isn't clearly good.

I am going to follow my strategy, and reveal that I am a Roleblocker.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Town Strategy Post
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:39 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:47 pm
Posts: 0
Im a town visitor.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Town Strategy Post
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:46 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2020 1:51 am
Posts: 0
I think we should maybe hold off on public claims until we get a more established consensus that mass revealing the visiting roles is good, just in case we (the ones who have voiced an opinion so far) are missing a better strategy? In particular I want to hear more people's thoughts on the failure probability of the gay knight plan before we get locked into the public claims plan.

That said, I agree that all of this should happen soon... Which means we should have a town meeting ASAP to get a good measure of people's thoughts.

_________________
:Ṣḅ ̇ + ·Ạṣ: :SbAs:

Nice, I am all town on this blessed day. Also, mathfia is hard.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Town Strategy Post
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:13 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:19 pm
Posts: 0
I think it's important to execute a decent strategy properly, rather than a slightly better strategy poorly.

I am a jailer [sic].


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Town Strategy Post
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:20 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:47 pm
Posts: 0
Agree with aok, wanna have a big town meeting at 7pm? here's a zoom: Meghal Gupta is inviting you to a scheduled Zoom meeting.

https://mit.zoom.us/j/94135925040


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Town Strategy Post
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:43 pm 

Joined: Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:48 pm
Posts: 0
So it turns out that every targeting role can prove their role. It's really really powerful to prove your role to town, because mafia have a limited number of each role, and mafia cannot stalk.

Stalkers learn who their target targeted. If a stalker stalks another player, and then tells player they stalked who they targeted, the stalked player can tell if the stalker is telling the truth. This confirms to the person they stalked that the stalker is real.

A similar thing can work for other roles, which we can figure out for day 2.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Town Strategy Post
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:06 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 06, 2020 6:10 pm
Posts: 0
Sorry; I've been a bit busy most of the day... I think I missed the Zoom meeting? Presumably nothing dramatic changed during it or else I hope it would've been posted, but I'll claim visitor now.

What happened in the Zoom meeting? Can anyone fill me in?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Town Strategy Post
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:22 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:47 pm
Posts: 0
I think people basically decided mass reveal was probably the best thing for town. Also, stalker is a role that can pretty conveniently prove themselves, so stalkers should stalk a targeting role and apart from that people should follow the plan outlined in the post (Plan for Days 1-2) I made.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Town Strategy Post
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:51 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 06, 2020 6:10 pm
Posts: 0
megaol wrote:
I think people basically decided mass reveal was probably the best thing for town. Also, stalker is a role that can pretty conveniently prove themselves, so stalkers should stalk a targeting role and apart from that people should follow the plan outlined in the post (Plan for Days 1-2) I made.


Alright, thanks!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Town Strategy Post
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 2:00 am 
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2020 1:51 am
Posts: 0
Oof in retrospect jailers really should claim roleblocker instead in pretty much every case, rip

_________________
:Ṣḅ ̇ + ·Ạṣ: :SbAs:

Nice, I am all town on this blessed day. Also, mathfia is hard.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Town Strategy Post
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:03 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 06, 2020 6:10 pm
Posts: 0
Last night I visited sammyluo.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Town Strategy Post
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:58 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2020 1:51 am
Posts: 0
Some miscellaneous scattered thoughts:

Visitors can be used to keep taxi drivers accountable (by having them visit the taxi drivers and making the taxi drivers claim who's going to get visited), if we have a trustable dictator willing to do that level of dictation privately

Visitors can also be used to catch mafia taxi drivers, just like stalkers can, by choosing unpredictable visit targets as they're doing: if they try to taxi themselves with townies, they run the risk of the townie randomly getting visited instead of them

_________________
:Ṣḅ ̇ + ·Ạṣ: :SbAs:

Nice, I am all town on this blessed day. Also, mathfia is hard.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Town Strategy Post
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:00 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2020 1:51 am
Posts: 0
Also, vigs should never claim if their kills failed (so that the mafia keep wasting roleblocks on them)

Also luke should infodump everything to vluo at night of course

_________________
:Ṣḅ ̇ + ·Ạṣ: :SbAs:

Nice, I am all town on this blessed day. Also, mathfia is hard.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group